Thrashers Travel Travails, Team Townhall,Triumph Over FLA
I can only think of one word to encapsulate Thrasher-world on Saturday Feb 6th and that word is "unexpected".
I expected a Thrashers Townhall full of Season Ticket Holders in full revolt. I expected someone might stand up and rip up their tickets and throw them down in disgust. I expected to hear calls for the GM to be fired and new ownership. I expected someone to yell "show him the money!"
Instead I witnessed a spirited and rather honest-back-and-forth between fans, GM and ownership. I heard a surprisingly candid and mature discussion about the state of the team from both fans and management. From the fans, I heard anger and frustration, but also a recognition that their is more than one way to build a hockey team. From management, I heard both the GM and owner take their lumps and admit that "we've made mistakes" but also pledge that "we're here to win hockey games and we're committed to accomplishing that goal." There was a lot less salesmanship and a lot more plain speaking than I expected. [More details on the Townhall coming up below.]
That meeting was followed by an unexpected hockey game. The Thrashers team had lost the night before to the Washington Capitals. Historically, NHL teams struggle in the 2nd of back to back games. In the Thrashers case, their difficulty was exacerbated by the historic snowfall in Washington which caused them to consume 10 hours traveling home to Atlanta. The start of the game against Florida had to be pushed back almost an hour. Given those conditions, I would not have been surprised to see a tired team bereft of their star player produce a stinker effort.
Instead, the team came out with great passion and energy and out-shot and out-worked the opponent. Ron Hainsey fought, Tobias Enstrom and Pavel Kubina pinched in like the ghost of Bobby Orr. Zach Bogosian and Evander Kane were rowdy, and new Thrasher Nicklas Bergfors supplied a beautiful game winner. The players moved around on the power play, and the passing was crisp. Reasoner and Oduya were outstanding on the PK, and Hedberg was up to the task in goal. They played like a like a team. If every hockey game was this exciting, the tickets would sell themselves. It was easily one of the most entertaining games of the season. With the late start, the crowd was all there from the National Anthem and they were prepared to make some noise. The team fed off the nearly full building. It was both startling and exciting at the same time. It was very unexpected.
Now the Thrashers get a couple days off to practice with their two new guys before the face a critical 3 game road trip before the Olympic Break. If they lose all three, their playoffs aspirations are on life support--it is so hard to make up points in March with all of the three point games and falling behind by 6-7 points could be fatal. However, if they get only one win, they're in trouble, but it could still work out favorably. Two wins and they will have set themselves up for the NHL version of March Madness where they battle for one of those last three playoff berths. These next three games in February are incredibly important contests.
Thrashers Townhall Meeting Recap
[As usual I took detailed notes, but unless I use quotes, it is a paraphrase of what was said.]
The fans packed the Hawks Practice court and almost every seat was taken. Season ticket reps lined one wall. On the other wall were senior management of the team and building. When Don Waddell walked in he was accompanied by two owners (Bruce Levenson and Ed Peskowitz) and the CEO of Philips Arena. There was definitely tension in the air.
Waddell began by talking about the arduous travel from DC. They departed via bus at 9 a.m. to Richmond, VA. Grazed a truck on the icy roads where they lost a mirror, reached their plane by 2pm, but had to wait 2 more hours to be de-iced and for weather clearance. The takeoff was a real "white knuckler" and they didn't reach Philips Arena until almost 6pm.
Waddell then shifted to Kovalchuk and did an overview of contract talks. They met with his agent almost a year ago in April. Then, in June, they talked with Kovalchuk at his home about which free agents to target that summer. In July, Kovalchuk said he wanted to wait to see how the team looked before starting talks. Waddell said "I really thought he wanted to stay, so we waited." The team was winning, and in November, Kovy green-lighted talks. Kovalchuk's side asked for 12 years at the cap max of $11+ million and they never budged from that number. The Thrashers countered with multiple offers of different contract lengths and dollar amounts ranging from 7 years to 10 years. Their 10 year offer combined with the money the Thrashers had already paid Kovalchuk in his first 8 seasons, would have added up to a career total of $149 million--which is more money than any player has ever made in a career in the NHL. They offered more money per year than any other NHL player currently makes. Kovalchuk's position was that he felt he deserved the cap max and would wait to free agency on July 1st to see if a team would meet that price.
Once trade talks began the market was "smaller than the number of rumored teams" because everyone knew his contract demands where high enough that they couldn't acquire him and hope that he would sign for less money. A pure rental trend simply doesn't bring as much. Talks really came down to three teams and the offers where not amazing. Their goal was to acquire both immediate help and future considerations. Cormier: Thrashers Rick Dudley and Dan Marr both had him ranked as the #1 prospect in NJ system. Devils refused to part with him for first 24 hours of serious talks, finally relented then they said no deal without him. Oduya: plays big minutes, can not have too many quality defenseman, plays in all situations, signed for several years to reasonable contract--Dudley really liked him as well. Berfgors: can score the puck, young and crafty, will mature with other young talent like Kane.
Change creates new opportunities. It was Ilya's team before--by design--now the door is open for other leaders to step up. "I think the team was ready for a change, not a knock on Ilya, but they always looked at him. Sometimes that was not enough. They're disappointed because Ilya is a good person and teammate and sad to see him go. But they are ready to compete for the playoffs--it was a very determined room on Friday." He then opened it up to questions.
Everybody knew that some questions needed to be brought up and the first guy did not disappoint. He asked Don if he shouldn't step down and let Dudley take over? Waddell said that "I have no intention of stepping down. It is ownership's decision not mine." He said that Dudley is a good evaluator of talent. "I have made some mistakes in the past, but if we had kept Kovalchuk the price was so high that later we would have to choose between keeping either Bogosian or Kane" when it came time for their pay raises. "under a cap system you have to make choices, the pie is only so big and the players understand that too."
The next questioner continued the line of attack by saying, "this franchise can't retain top guys. Going way back we let Staios, Brunette, and Savard depart, when are we going to keep our stars?" Waddell: We agreed that the team did choose to pass on Staios, Brunette and Savard, while Hossa and Heatley made their own decisions to leave.
Q What about the three goalies? Waddell: We're pretty happy with what we have seen this year. Goaltending has not been our biggest problem. Mannino is tearing it up in the AHL. We will not keep 3 goalies at NHL level, not enough starts or practice time to go around. The market for goalie trades is not good though, return will be very modest. [Later another goalie question was asked but I'm going to put both answers here.] 2nd question was basically, "What's the problem with Kari?" Waddell pointed to his lack of dependability and indicated that in the locker room the players no longer feel like they can count on him and perhaps they don't play as hard for him as they do for Hedberg.
Another tough, but good question, came next, "Why does this team play listless half the time? Isn't that the job of the coaching staff to have these guys ready? Waddell: "Of course it is on the coach, but the players also have to take responsibility as well. I watch the games and just like you I ask myself why the slow starts. Unlike you guys I can go down to the locker room and ask the players--I don't always like the answers I get. It is a big concern, we have discussed it a lot. I think we have been better in the 1st period the last time games with the exception of the Carolina game. He made a joke that we should all just keep talking through the 1st "because we will be down 2-0 anyway"--which was prophetic.
Earlier DW had left open the possibilty of making an offer to Ilya Kovalchuk if he reaches the UFA market in July. So someone asked "Why would we even attempt to re-sign Kovy on July 1st if the team wants to head in a new direction? If you go with a new philosophy shouldn't you stick with it?" In his answer Waddell focused on the current Thrashers roster and their potential to compete. He said "I know half you guys in here hate me, so let me put it this way [pause] Rick Dudley thinks we have the talent right now to be a playoff team." [laughter in the room]
Next question was about the identity of the team now. Waddell: We can't just rely on being flashy to win games, neither do we want to try and win every game 2-1--margin of error too small, boring hockey. We've always been offensive minded, but we have made some improvement on the defensive side. Adding Oduya another step in that process. We will score goals without Ilya, but we still need to cut down our goals allowed to win games. Then Waddell tossed out that Valabik had probably injured his ACL and was likely down for the season. "He'll get an MRI on Monday to confirm it, but it doesn't look good."
Next questioner critiqued both Kovalchuk and the sausages--no I'm not making this up. He said Kovalchuk took his helmet off on the bench toward the end of a recent game and looked like he had given up, bad signal from the captain. Also game experience had declined and sausages are smaller. The guy sitting behind me said "I never thought I'd miss Aramark." Waddell tried to make amends to this STH--let's just say that guy is getting a new ticket rep.
Waddell mentioned next season they might offer benefit package with a menu of choices because not everyone wants the same side benefits. [Personally I thought this was a rather creative approach, but it will certainly require work by the staff to keep track of who gets what.]
Another pointed but rational question next. "I've been a STH for many years, tell me why I should renew?" Of all the questions asked the entire night this one proved most troublesome for DW. He began by talking about how a team is not just one individual. Then he said that fans should give the guys still here a chance to show what they can do--they have a lot of pride. Probably no ticket increases next year. We know we have to win and we're doing our best to make that take place. The one year we made the playoffs the crowds were good, right now only hard core fans coming, we think 4,000 disaffected former STH who still watch and come now and then. Rest of Atlanta will only come if we grab their attention. [That last part sounded almost like quote from a blog somewhere.]
I'm going to pause here and say that it seemed to me that Waddell had mentally prepared for all sorts of Kovy related questions and was really caught flat-footed on this one, it was his worst answer of the night in my opinion. As a fan here's what I would have liked to hear Don Waddell say to that person: "We have a PLAN to compete and win. Here is our plan.
- Improve our ability identify talent--which we did by adding Rick Dudley and canning our Q scout.
- Get younger and avoid declining veterans--which we did with this Kovalchuk trade.
- Get players that fit our identity (young, fast and puck skills) and our coach--which we have done over the last year.
- Make hard choices and trade away players who don't fit our identity--which we did with Exelby.
We have a plan, but it will not turn around the ship immediately. We have learned from past mistakes and here is the route we have mapped out to win in the future." I think an answer like that would have sold some renewal packages.
Next another tough question "Where are our owners, we see Arthur Blank all the time, where are these guys? We only hear about them suing each other. And why didn't you give Kovy an ultimatum this summer?" Waddell: "The one regret I have is that we didn't get know they would not budge from a cap max back in July. This could have happened a lot faster. I really thought he wanted to stay and that was wrong."
Waddell: As for the owners, being seen is not what it is all about. They take a lot of heat from fans. We ask for support for the team and staff and they do that. They are involved in every decision. People complain about their support for the hockey side, but we just offered more money to Kovalchuk than than they are paying to any NBA player. They are committed to building the team--for example the year we made the playoffs they agreed to add some expensive players. Our DC owners probably attend as many Thrasher games as I do. And then he turned mic over to owner Bruce Levenson.
Bruce Levenson: I'm not Arthur Blank you will not see me down on the bench but I spend almost every 3rd period in Don's box. We have worked together for 6 years. In business you have to work with people you trust and we have have that with him. On the NBA side we changed the GM, we would do that on the hockey side if we felt it was necessary. I've received many requests to fire Don from current and former STH. We could perhaps make some money if we fired him but we trust him. As owners we have made some good decisions and bad decisions. I probably talk to Don 3-4 times a day. I'm not a GM and I'm not a coach, I'm an owner, but I'm not afraid to make a change. On the NBA side we changed the GM but kept our coach and he is now the longest tenure in the East. Our NBA team has improved for six straight seasons. We want sustained success on the hockey side, but we have made more mistakes. But we want to win--otherwise we would not have made an offer for $101 million to a player. You don't do that if you plan on quitting on hockey.
Q Who will lead, who will be captain? Waddell: We have four players with an "A" stick with that for the moment and see who steps up. They have 11 guys on the roster who were captain before in college or in junior hockey. "A lot of potential there." Tossed out that Kubina has been a real "take charge" guy for this team.
Q What about other UFAs on the roster? Waddell: We're been pretty busy with Kovalchuk thing and have possible goalie trade coming up. Kubina--we plan to begin talks with his agent during Olympic break. [After session was over I asked Waddell if they would re-sign Kubina if it meant having 5 quality D who make all make some $? He said yes and he was hopeful that an extension could be worked out.] Waddell said he and Colby had "an interesting conversation" this week and they would talk again over the break--which sounded decidedly less hopeful than his Kubina comments. As for Max, he praised his hard work and willingness to prove himself to the NHL when he could have gotten more money in the KHL. "We will really need his goal scoring down the stretch." [My interpretation: don't invest in a Max jersey folks.]
A final question about ownership and rumors of Thrashers relocation. owner Bruce Levenson took this one: "Everyone wrote the obituary of hockey in Atlanta during the lockout--and here we are 5 years later. We are committed to building a team here. This is one of the largest markets in the USA, I'd rather own a team here than a number of other NHL cities. We wouldn't have made a $101 million offer to Kovalchuk if we planned on bailing on hockey. I live in DC and I remember a game when the Thrashers traveled up to play the Caps. We beat them in their building and Kovy had two goals that night. [Waddell: "Who was the coach that night?" --it was Waddell as coach] It was a Monday night and there was nobody in the building--just a few thousand people. And now the Caps are the hottest ticket in DC. That's what winning can do. I'm good friends with the Caps owner and we talk about this all the time. Just look at the Hawks. When we bought them they were the laughing stock of the NBA. We've turned them around. And now we're trying our hardest to do that on the hockey side.
Final Observations. I was impressed that the hostile questions were pretty rational and on point. Often when people are really angry logic gives way to insults or shouting. The hostile questions were much more civil than I expected. The other thing that really shocked me is just how many people thought Kovalchuk had asked for too much money. I heard a lot of people muttering that they liked him, but he was asking for too much. I thought there would be more "Kovy at any price" people there tonight. Bruce Levenson was much better this time, I would have liked to hear something about the budget for next season when he mentioned that they were committed to competing.
I hope you enjoyed reading this summary. Please forgive whatever mistakes. It's 2 a.m. and I'm totally worn out after putting the rest of my life on "pause" during Kovy Trade Week. Don Waddell looked pretty tired too, at one point he called Evander Kane "Patrick Kane" which caused a few chuckles.
2 recs |
59 comments
|
Comments
Excellent entry, Falconer
You can tell the STH have some brains. Kovy was asking for WAY too much money and maybe it’s a blessing that he didn’t accept the $101 million offer.
I wish the team would follow how the Preds run their team. They don’t have 1 player that makes more than $4.5 million a year. I just think it’s better to have 2 good players making $4-5 million a year than have 1 great player making $10-11 million a year. Especially if you’re a team that is going to spend toward the bottom of the cap.
by ChappyThrasher on Feb 7, 2010 2:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Amen
Exactly! The predators are a perfect example and one we should follow. You can add an expensive, flashy forward later when the building is full for people to see and bandwagon fans to get hooked on.
You’re right, it is a blessing that he didn’t accept the $101 million offer, I just really hope that he doesn’t come back before July and accept that offer because then we are back to square one.
by ThrashersRecaps on Feb 7, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great Town Hall Review
Sounds like things were civil, more than they should have been after the events of this week…
by leedawg77 on Feb 7, 2010 4:20 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks!
Thanks for the effort to post this. It’s much appreciated.
Insisting that Cormier was the #1 NJ prospect is in indictment of either the Devils’ farm system or the Thrashers’ ability to judge talent, but I guess we’ll see which shortly.
And it still sounds like some key UFAs can’t wait to get out of town. Not encouraging.
by Zontar on Feb 7, 2010 7:28 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
>> And it still sounds like some key UFAs can’t wait to get out of town. Not encouraging.
??? Between which line are you reading that statement? I didn’t hear that last night, although I was waiting for someone to ask about Max’s rumored statement about leaving with Kovy.
by SilverRubicon on Feb 7, 2010 8:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll withhold my judgment of Cormier until he plays with men, but it sounds like he could go either way.
Regardless, Rick Dudley’s skill at talent evaluation is much more highly regarded by NHL people than anyone who posts on this site.
Great update. Thanks Falconer.
by Pogue Mahon on Feb 7, 2010 9:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Realistic
Thanks for reporting on the Town Hall. I was kind of depressed that Kovalchuk was leaving. But when you started posting about his poor defensive play, I started to think you were right. My concern though was how are we going to retain Antropov, Afinogenov, and Kubina without him? Did they come here because of Kovalchuk and would they stay if he were not here?
by BTF on Feb 7, 2010 9:15 AM EST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Kubina was acquired via trade
So, just Antro and Max are of concern because Kovy lured them here. Antro is under contract so he isn’t going anywhere unless he asks out. Max will be gone next year.
by Cracker! on Feb 7, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The biggest thing I took away from last nights meeting… Everyone I spoke with, every conversation I overheard is happy (well maybe happy is the wrong word) that Kovy is gone. People were frustrated with his defensive play and his lackadaisical play at times during the year.
by SilverRubicon on Feb 7, 2010 9:29 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Outstanding recap! I was expecting a little more drama as well. One woman came into the meeting with her husband and was wearing a Dallas Stars jersey (funny enough it was the old “mooterus” constellation jersey) and her husband was wearing a Canucks jersey. She was carrying a Kovalchuk jersey on a hanger. I thought for sure she was gonna have some drama. She didn’t even raise her hand.
I’m a kool-aid drinker, but I too thought Waddell seemed sincere. He was pretty funny, too.
Thanks for the recap.
by Sunshine36616 on Feb 7, 2010 9:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Patience required
I, Like other fans have been waiting for them to be better. But, I think we have not had Rick Dudley and Anderson here long enough to judge properly. I met Waddell and Dudley in person at the Ice Forum in August, and I really believe that the staff is committed to putting the best team on ice possible. I am not sure what will happen with Armstrong, Kubina, Afinogenov in their contract talks, but I think that Dudley is looking at other possibilities and will be prepared with an alternate plan if we deon’t resign them. I do hope all 3 stay, but it seems like Armstrong may go. But you never know!
by BTF on Feb 7, 2010 10:05 AM EST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
I was a bit surprised that Don really is planning on carrying 5 Top-4 defensemen long-term, but now with Boris’ injury, it makes even more sense. You never know how he’ll look next season. If they were wavering, that had to push them toward re-signing Kubina.
I didn’t think the Town Hall was partcularly interesting, personally. Most of the information we got was stuff we already knew. I was hoping for more questions about Cormier (and why they picked him over Tedenby, for example) and if they feel the 2nd-round swap hurts the effectiveness of our new 1st round pick…
Still, like usual, the crowd was (mostly) respectful and well-spoken.
But what the hell was up with those hotdogs? They looked a little too brown for me to eat one…
by timmyf on Feb 7, 2010 10:28 AM EST via mobile reply actions 0 recs
hot dog
They were horrible, and I’m a fan of hotdogs. I wished I hadn’t eaten it and ate more of the chicken instead. Chicken was good and I was excited about free Cokes. Not too bad for being thrown together at the last minute.
by Sunshine36616 on Feb 7, 2010 10:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Least "newsy" but most "emotional"?
I agree Tim. Usually we learn lots of things about the players. This one was fundamentally about fans relationship with the team and the Kovalchuk decision. I found it interesting because the critiques were front and center in the discussion instead of being off to the side.
All things Thrashers + stats: www.birdwatchersanonymous.com
by The Falconer on Feb 7, 2010 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you for the summary...
As a former season ticket holder, I’ve sat through a number of these where I came out of the meeting feeling better only to see very little of it come to fruition.
I don’t think I’ll ever go back to being a full season ticket holder due to the time commitment, but I also need to see more implemented from this team, management and ownership to commit to more than the occasional game.
by Blut-0 on Feb 7, 2010 10:29 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Still not convinced
Thanks for the recap, Falconer. Excellent as always.
However, I think it’s easy for the mgmt to walk in and say all the right things, but much harder to execute their “plans.” See the last 10 years for proof.
And for all the good feelings earned by a win in a full building, they got crushed by the Caps the night before. I’m not ready to plan the parade just yet.
I do not know how to support my team given that I am so against this ownership group. I’m not angry with the team, I’m angry with the owners. I really don’t know what to do. The only voice I have is to not show up – to vote with my wallet. But the Thrashers are still my team.
P.S. I’m glad the sausages will improve. Seriously.
by CuckooForKovalchuk on Feb 7, 2010 11:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
>> they got crushed by the Caps the night before.
Everyone is getting crushed by Washington, but from what I heard on the radio and what I’ve read Atlanta played much, much better. That seemed to carry over to the Panther game. Keep in mind that there was quite a bit of uncertainty and shock heading into the Caps game. We’ll see how the team fares this week against stiffer competition. If they play hard (win or lose) all three games, I’ll be happy.
by SilverRubicon on Feb 7, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the recap Falconer
Always insightful. With Boris down, we might still try to trade Schubert or not? Maybe packaged with Lehtonen? As far as Army, Max and Pavel are concerned, I guess we’ll wait to see how the next 3 games go…
by FrenchKheldar on Feb 7, 2010 11:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Schubert is on IR… He’d be tough to trade.
by timmyf on Feb 7, 2010 12:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting Conversation?
Matt-
What was your take on the nature of the “interesting conversation” Waddell had with Armstrong? I know you said he sounded decidely less hopeful with Armstrong than he did with Kubina, but what do you think was said?
I know a lot of fans dog Armstrong and that they think his popularity stems from his off-ice persona rather than his on-ice performance. I’m not one of those people. I think Armstrong is essential to the gritty, team game, blue collar, outwork your opponents style of play we are going to be seeing from here on out. Just curious as to what you think he and Don talked about- feel free to thorw in your feelings on whether or not he will re-sign as well.
by Tappers#3 on Feb 7, 2010 11:39 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
re: interesting conversation
I can’t help but feel that if the conversation had been “hey Don I want to stay here” he would have said so. So my gut feeling (and it is nothing more than a hunch) is that it might have been more like “I’ll play as hard as I can this year, but I want to choose my next team via free agency.” Perhaps DW countered with “If were to make a trade is there a team you would prefer to play for?” and so forth. Again pure speculation on my part, time will tell.
All things Thrashers + stats: www.birdwatchersanonymous.com
by The Falconer on Feb 7, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
bergfors. . . forsberg, coincidence?
yeh. definitely.
by dennylambert!! on Feb 7, 2010 12:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Great recap, Falconer! Ed and I were surprised at how civil the town hall meeting was, as well. I don’t think Kovy was worth the money he wanted – and I was surprised to see how many STHs agreed with me. Don didn’t come out and say it, but I got the impression the team was almost glad to have the trade done. Whether they were just tired of the contract negotiation drama, tired of having a team built around one player, or something else, I don’t know. However, I did feel like we were watching a whole new team last night. I can’t remember the last time I saw Hainsey drop the gloves, and other guys seemed to be showing more passion, too. I’m very optimistic.
Also, I had no idea that was you taking a pic of me last night! Imagine my surprise to log on here and see myself with my Bergfors sign!
by BethD on Feb 7, 2010 12:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The picture taker was my friend with whom I play hockey. I was the guy sitting next to him, I motioned for you to put the sign up after he scored the GWG. Next time I’ll say hi.
All things Thrashers + stats: www.birdwatchersanonymous.com
by The Falconer on Feb 7, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for obliging me taking the pic!
by nhlfan79 on Feb 8, 2010 9:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Armstrong
He would look good in Copper & Blue.
Editor of The Copper & Blue, and leader of The Cult Of Hartikainen.
by Derek Zona on Feb 7, 2010 1:49 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Are you offering him “Horcoff money” this summer?
All things Thrashers + stats: www.birdwatchersanonymous.com
by The Falconer on Feb 7, 2010 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
probably just “Penner money”
Being a Thrashers fan - it's kind of like being punk rock in a hick town.
Birdwatchers Anonymous
by aaron b on Feb 7, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nashville is the model.
I was told, back in the first couple of seasons, that Atlanta would vastly outperform Nashville because Nashville was winning too many games early in their history. To this point in Atlanta’s history, they have not had more points in the standings than Nashville. Not once. Sure, Nashville is yet to make a splash in the playoffs, but wouldn’t you rather make it 4 years in a row than once? Besides, at least they have won some games. They aren’t flashy. They aren’t spending loads of money. They also have low ticket revenues… Yet, somehow, they find a way to compete. Interesting to note that they have also had the same GM and Head Coach for their entire existence.
by Tekneek211 on Feb 7, 2010 2:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Falconer, I was interested in your read on Waddell re: Armstrong. You thought it was less positive than Kubina and I wasn’t there to see/hear what you did. However, given that we would have given Armstrong a longer deal this summer and he chose a 1 year deal. Most of us interpreted that as a sign that he was good as gone at the end of the year. So, when Waddell and he talked and had an interesting conversation, I take the face value comments as more encouraging than not, given that I had no doubt he was gone. I do wonder if the “interesting” part of that conversation might be Army’s true feelings for Kovy and now that Kovy is gone, he might be more willing to stay? Given my interactions with Canadian fans over the years, they LOVE everybody Canadian, ignore Americans, but hate Russians. Every Canadian I know hates Ovechkin and loves Crosby. Every Canadian kid I’ve talked to has their local team and the Penguins as their favorite teams (b/c Crosby’s Canadian). I just wonder if the same is somewhat true for the players, given they grew up in a similar type environment.
by PT Dawg on Feb 7, 2010 7:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Armstrong and Crosby, to the best of my knowledge, were totally BFFs, so that might be even worse than normal in this instance.
Of course, with 41 million committed for 13 players next season, the Pens probably couldn’t re-sign Armstrong even if he wanted to go back. At least not without taking a pretty hefty paycut.
by timmyf on Feb 7, 2010 8:10 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
It’s sad there was far more anger at the Tea Party convention than there was directed towards Waddell and Levenson…
by Black ice in Alabama on Feb 7, 2010 11:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Depending on where you stand that may not be sad at all.
by Ahijado94 on Feb 7, 2010 11:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe next time
They go through their ever growing list of “former” season ticket holders and listen to what they have to say.
Wadda-do, Everybody...
by TheBrickwall on Feb 8, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem is that the anger is so often irrational. (Especially at the Tea Party convention…)
I’m not sure exactly what Waddell should have done differently. I mean, they signed Antropov for reasonable money. They traded spare parts for Kubina. They brought in Afinogenov for less money than Jimmy Slater makes. They made an extremely good offer to Kovalchuk that was turned down, so they moved him for an Olympian on a multi-year contract, a promising rookie, a solid prospect, and a 1st round pick.
Go back to last year: look at Rich Peverley. (And his extension.) Moving Christensen for O’Dell. Our very strong draft.
If you want to complain, feel free. But I think Waddell has done pretty well the past few years, especially if you take into consideration the realm of possibility.
by timmyf on Feb 8, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I blame Don less for the last 3-4 years than for the first 5-6. But setting that aside, and taking off the maroon, navy, rust, brown, and gold colored glasses, just what exactly have those moves accomplished? It’s about winning, playoff appearances, moving the franchise forward. Those should be the goals he should be measured on. Do you have a annual goal/development program that you’re measured on at work? Do you think you’d still be employed if 7 out of 8 years you underperformed at your job?
Why should I think the story will change this time around with the building blocks of Kane, Little and Bogosian? We had the number 1-2 Calder finalists in the 01-02 season, followed that with 02 draft of our franchise goalie, followed that with drafting the franchise defenceman. And we did exactly what with that talent?
And now we’re told we’re going to be “buyers” at the deadline? And what are we going to buy with? Picks, prospects? Why at this point. Oh, and if Kovy hasn’t signed this summer we may look at him again. Have we discarded the 5 year plan for the “which way is the wind blowing” plan?
We’ve changed players, owners, coaches, sweaters, to no avail. There’s only one other position that hasn’t been addressed.
Wadda-do, Everybody...
by TheBrickwall on Feb 8, 2010 3:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Do you have a annual goal/development program that you’re measured on at work? Do you think you’d still be employed if 7 out of 8 years you underperformed at your job?
Perhaps, but by your own statement, Waddell has done better lately. I would be quite upset if I were fired from my job for poor performance years ago. Nor would I be happy for doing something my supervisors told me to do (Coburn for Zhitnik) or something I had absolutely no control over (the departure of Heatley and Hossa, Lehtonen’s glass groin.)
The fact is, you can only do so much given the constraints. I’m a consultant. I teach classes to folks who buy my company’s software. I can teach them how to use the software… assuming they know how to use a computer. But I can’t teach them computer skills and how to use the software. And if we take 2 hour lunches and need to break by 4 every day, I can’t teach them as well either.
Don Waddell is doing a reasonable job given the constraints. The five-year plan worked until Dany Heatley smashed his car into a wall. The team was gradually getting better and hitting playoff-level winning percentages by the end of season 4.
I’m also not sure we should be buyers at the deadline. That’s the conversation we ought to have, not constantly calling for Waddell’s head. Put another way: let’s say the Spirit fire Waddell… do you trust them to hire somebody better?
This team is a long way from winning a Stanley Cup, but I don’t think that’s Don Waddell’s fault. For me to think it is his fault would require me to think that somebody else could do significantly better in the same situation… and I don’t.
by timmyf on Feb 8, 2010 6:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
timmy, I gotta agree with you. Waddell should not be fired for his performance years ago, and lately he hasn’t been as bad as many of us make him out to be, myself included. He’s the most visible extension of the management/ownership and he takes the brunt of our disappointment and discontent as a result.
I think lately he’s been doing good for the thrashers; the only thing that I’d like to criticize is the fact that we didn’t trade Kovy over the summer, but that really isn’t his fault. Kovy, our star player and face of the franchise, said he wanted to be a Thrasher for life and wanted to resign; he just wanted to see that the team was going somewhere. So Kovy kinda tricked us into delaying until Novemberish and from then on, they’ve been working on things. Who knew Grossman/Kovy wouldn’t negotiate…at all….I sure didn’t, and I bet Waddell didn’t either…
by Ferkahn on Feb 8, 2010 7:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course Waddell didn’t know he wanted over $11 million per season for 10-12 years. He would have traded him in the summer. He said as much during the Town Hall.
He’s an easy target. I’d prefer we go after the right target.
by timmyf on Feb 8, 2010 7:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait, I didn’t say his performance improved, I just said he’s probably been more constrained the past few years. Improving would have been taking a team that made the playoffs and having them return the following season and hopefully having won a series by now. Instead we’ve taken a couple of serious steps backwards – 97 points down to back-to-back 76 points seasons…back to ‘02-’03 levels and we’re on pace for 83 points this year. So even if his moves may have made better sense the outcome is the same, no post-season. Again.
Look I would love nothing more than to go down to the Bulb and watch a game between the Birds/Caps like the one that got played yesterday between PIT/WAS. But with this haphazard approach we keep taking with trying to build a team I don’t know if we’ll ever see that day.
by TheBrickwall on Feb 8, 2010 7:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You must be forgetting about all the years that Washington and Pittsburgh were GOD AWFUL.
Caps: 03-04 59 points, 05-06 70 points, 06-07 70 points – that’s three seasons in a row with 70 points or less.
Pens: 01-02 69 points, 02-03 65 points, 03-04 58 points, 05-06 58 points – that’s four seasons in a row with 70 points or less
Look, teams rise and fall. We’ve just had two 76 point seasons in a row and are feeling pretty lousy about it… but the Penguins had two 58 point seasons in a row. That’s 18 points per season LESS than we’ve been going through.
by timmyf on Feb 8, 2010 7:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And where does the Cup reside now? And who was in the Cup finals the year before? And who leads the NHL in points now? And who played for the Conference championship last year?
You yourself said this team is a long way from winning a Stanley Cup. The Pens and Caps have proven you can win it or get damn close to contending for it in a lot less than ten years and counting.
by TheBrickwall on Feb 8, 2010 8:18 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Exactly. The problem is that 1) we weren’t, believe it or not, bad enough for long enough 2) we had major pieces of our team leave (Savard, Heatley/Hossa).
And by “long way” I meant pieces, not years. You can build a Stanley Cup contender in 5 or 6 years, but there’s still a lot of luck involved. We haven’t had the luck.
As much as I like Kovy, he’s no Crosby. He’s no Malkin. He’s no Ovechkin. We got the wrong guys when we were horribly awful. It wasn’t bad drafting, they just weren’t the right guys. Let’s say we assume that the Heatley incident never happened… how good would this team have been after three years of Kovy – Savard – Heatley. Toss in a healthy Lehtonen and a couple good trade deadline pickups and this team would have had a run.
That’s not what happened. And it sucks. But that doesn’t make it Don Waddell’s fault.
by timmyf on Feb 8, 2010 8:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
quit bein faster.
Being a Thrashers fan - it's kind of like being punk rock in a hick town.
Birdwatchers Anonymous
by aaron b on Feb 8, 2010 8:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pens are an entirely different situation. Pittsburgh has an established fanbase and could afford to (allegedly) tank for top draft picks. The Thrashers didn’t have that luxury as an expansion team. The problem I have is with scouting and the drafting (a Waddell weakness) we’ve done since – couple that with the inability to resign guys like Hossa and Savard, and that’s where the problem starts. Then subtract a home-run draft pick (Heatley) who runs himself out of town, and that’s how we get where we’re at.
Being a Thrashers fan - it's kind of like being punk rock in a hick town.
Birdwatchers Anonymous
by aaron b on Feb 8, 2010 8:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pittsburgh could afford to tank? Excuse me. Weren’t they the team that went through a bankruptcy and wasn’t there a new arena built in Kansas City just waiting for their relocation?
Whatever, I realize I’m trying to reason with DW fan base but tell me how much longer you’d give him to produce some significant and by significant I’m talking getting at least to the second round progress?
by TheBrickwall on Feb 8, 2010 9:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That was post-(alleged)tank. Sid Crosby was already drafted and (IIRC) on the pens roster – the rebuilding was in full swing. My point is that the Heatley incident effectively set this team back to year 1 or 2, for a variety of reasons.
I wouldn’t say there is a DW fan among us writers – we’re all very critical of the moves and (lack thereof) that have been made. Would it be good PR to fire Waddell? Yes. Would that reason alone make it worth it? I doubt it.
Who would you hire as GM?
Being a Thrashers fan - it's kind of like being punk rock in a hick town.
Birdwatchers Anonymous
by aaron b on Feb 9, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It hurts now but we'll look back on it as a blessing
Big Indians fan and I remember well when they lost Manny to the Red Sox. It hurt then but it didn’t take long to realize it would have been stupid to spend $124 million on one player. The owner, Larry Dolan, later said it was “the best money I never spent”.
What frustrates me most about this situation though is that despite their claims to the contrary, the owners really just don’t care about the hockey side. They’ll just never convince me that they do. Therefore, given their apathy and total lack of a clue, they “trust” a guy for over ten years now that just plain isn’t getting the job done. “Hey, we don’t want to have to pay attention. We’ve got Waddell on the payroll to worry about it.” Nice, nice guy but just isn’t getting it done.
Ten plus years now. Teams aren’t built with top 5 picks. A monkey can make those picks and Waddell sure got Heatley and Kovy right. Looks like he may have gotten Kane right too. But that’s not where teams are built to be successful. You need to find those diamonds in the rough in the lower rounds. By my count, he’s found exactly ONE is ten years (Enstrom). The roster continues to be filled out by free agents and guys traded here that are anxious for their contracts to expire so they can move on. Many of them overpaid free agents past their prime (I’m looking at YOU Bobby Holik!).
I’d love nothing better than to see this ownership situation finally get itself resolved to at least get some stability. It still won’t get the owners really caring about hockey but maybe we’d be able to make some legitimate needed changes instead of just coasting along.
by Stoopid Gy on Feb 8, 2010 9:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
You need to find those diamonds in the rough in the lower rounds. By my count, he’s found exactly ONE is ten years (Enstrom).
Kulda and Postma will probably count as well, but they’re not there yet.
But to tackle your question like Alexander tackled the Gordian Knot: the GM isn’t responsible for finding those late-round gems. You might say that amateur scouts are responsible for finding late-round gems. But they’re not. Nobody is. If finding late-round gems were something you could actually find, those guys wouldn’t be going in the late rounds. It’s mostly luck. It’s taking a chance on the right kind of player. Our 7th rounder Levko Koper could turn out to be a 30-goal scorer in the NHL… he probably won’t but he could. But if scouts could really predict that he’d be that good, don’t you think somebody would take him before the 7th round?
Scouting is hard. And if anybody is at fault for it, it’s certainly not the GM.
by timmyf on Feb 8, 2010 9:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Although, to counter myself, if a scout isn’t performing well, it’s up to the GM to fix it. And, based on our better drafting over the past few years, it looks like Waddell has started to fix it. Dudley certainly helps.
by timmyf on Feb 8, 2010 9:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
STHs should have taken the statements from DW and BL and followed up with direct questions
“Their goal was to acquire both immediate help and future considerations. Cormier: Thrashers Rick Dudley and Dan Marr both had him ranked as the #1 prospect in NJ system. Devils refused to part with him for first 24 hours of serious talks, finally relented then they said no deal without him.”
AND the follow up question from a STH should have been "Why would the Thrashers organization agree to a deal involving a player who is currently suspended indefinitely in the juniors and up on criminal charges for an elbow headshot in open ice, two weeks ago. The aftermath resulted in Quebec Remparts defenceman, Mikeal Tam, convulsing on the ice before being taken off on a stretcher. The 18-year-old defenceman suffered trauma to the skull and brain and lost many teeth. Are these the type of quality players including the "new thrashers rebuilding process"?
Q What about the three goalies? Waddell: We’re pretty happy with what we have seen this year. Goaltending has not been our biggest problem.
AND the follow up question from a STH should have been "Every year from the 1999-2000 to now, the Thrashers have never had a healthy number #1 goaltender in net for a entire season and the team continues to fail addressing this issue. Trading, dumping and investing for top goaltending should have addressed long ago and today we get the statement "Goaltending has not been our biggest problem" but Waddell just pointed to his (Kari’s) lack of dependability and indicated that in the locker room the players no longer feel like they can count on him and perhaps they don’t play as hard for him as they do for Hedberg. Do you(DW) still believe goaltending has not been our biggest problem this year and every year since the beginning?
Other question to DW and BL:
"The ASG were ready to commit millions of dollars to sign one player. Are you committed to invest in this team yearly with the same money and increase the overall payroll, so the Thrashers are able to remain competitive?
by dsherman on Feb 9, 2010 1:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
1) The assumption is that he’ll learn his lesson and move on. It’s a risky move, but if Cormier can keep those elbows down, he’s a solid pickup.
2) Kari is gone. Moose has played like a #1 this year. Pavelec will be our #1 moving forward.
3) It’d be a bad idea to significantly increase payroll this off-season. We’re best keeping it down so we can re-sign Bogosian and Kane when they get new contracts in a few years.
by timmyf on Feb 9, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1) we’ll see. It’s clear as day this was no accident, you just don’t skate off the bench at full speed at another player in open ice with your elbow up.
2) your answer proves my point. we can’t rely on being a tandem goaltending team throughout the year. This system is use to produce a clear cut starter which we still don’t have. If Pavelec is to be our #1, he should start every game but he doesn’t.
3) You missed my point entirely, we are nowhere near the upper level of 56,800,000 a season. ASG needs to inject some funds into the team and get us to that level to sign some top tier players to remain competitive. We need to stop being cheap
by dsherman on Feb 9, 2010 4:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How much do we really think it’s going to take for Bogosian and Kane??? We’re not talking Crosby and Malkin here.
by TheBrickwall on Feb 9, 2010 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Probably 3-6 million each, starting on that lower end, but working toward the higher end.
Little, Pavelec, and Bergfors will all be getting raises in the near future as well.
by timmyf on Feb 9, 2010 5:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What is the expected output of our goalies in the system right now like Mannino? Do they expect them to work their way into NHL positions and if so what then?
by Ferkahn on Feb 9, 2010 2:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’d say Mac and Mannino are a couple years out. But I don’t get a chance to watch any Wolves games, so it’s hard to say.
by timmyf on Feb 9, 2010 5:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

by 

























