Kovalchuk Trade: More Day After Analysis
Last night I published my immediate reaction to the Kovalchuk trade. Twelve hours later everyone (including myself) has had a bit more time to digest this deal. Chris Vivlamore has also published a full transcript from his talk with Don Waddell that provides more detail on the perspective of Thrashers management team. I'll quote from this interview below as I consider some key questions.
Did the Thrashers get good value?
Jon Fischer of In Lou We Trust had this reaction:
Basically, the Devils just traded a talented defenseman who has been underperforming after signing his big contract with the team in the past summer (Oduya), a rookie forward who has hit the wall in the worst way and hasn't been able to get back on track in over a month (Bergfors), a prospect center who's been suspended for elbowing a player in the face and had upside of a two-way center to begin with (Cormier), and a first round pick that will be late anyway. All this for one of the best pure snipers in hockey. Lou Lamoriello rules.
Pierre Lebrun of ESPN had this reaction:
As for Atlanta, I doubt Waddell could have done better under the circumstances. Kovalchuk was going to walk as an unrestricted free agent on July 1; the Thrashers had to not only get something in return for their most important asset but also do it while not pulling the plug on their chase for a playoff spot. That's a balancing act, and acquiring a top-four blueliner in Johnny Oduya and a decent second-line winger in Niclas Bergfors to help the team right now was paramount.
So which is it?
Did the Thrashers receive talent that is of equal value to Ilya Kovalchuk in his prime? Absolutely not. Was any team offering them talent equal to Kovalchuk in his prime? Absolutely not. To get full value the Thashers needed to make this trade in the summer of 2009 or even the summer of 2008.
Did Don Waddell take the best offer? Who knows. Unless we learn what the other finalists were peddling we simply have no way of knowing. Certainly DW took the offer he liked the best. For myself, I really wish Atlanta had received a 1st line scoring forward or prospect in return, instead the best piece here is the defenseman Oduya--a position of some depth for the organization. If the Devils advance to the Eastern Finals the draft pick will be in the bottom four of the 1st round. The Thrashers record with late 1st round picks (Jim Slater, Alex Bourett, Daulton Leveille) is very discouraging.
On the other hand, if you're cynical, you might say that since the Thrashers defense is locked into place for the next several seasons all they have to do is find offense--and any rookie hockey fan can read the G-A-PTS to identify the scorers--so hard can it be to fill in the offensive holes, right?
What is lost?
There are some big losses with this trade:
- The team can no longer market an appealing star player to fans.
- The team will take another blow to fan enthusiasm.
- Season ticket base will probably get even smaller this summer.
- The team will miss out of the rest of Ilya Kovalchuk's offensive production.
- The Atlanta Thrashers franchise is once again branded with a giant "loser" label among fans here and in other cities.
- The Thrashers will likely have to pay the "loser's premium" to get top UFA to sign here.
What has been gained?
The losses entailed in the Kovalchuk trade are easy to recognize and list off. In contrast, I think what has been gained might be less obvious to most fans.
The Thrashers avoid the decline years of Ilya Kovalchuk. Ilya Kovalchuk relies on his raw speed to generate most of his even strength scoring chances. Someday he will lose a step of that speed and when he does he will be a much less useful offensive player. For example, Sergei Fedorov used to rely on his speed for offense. Fedorov was a consistent point-per-game NHL scorer and then at age 34 he suffered a big decline. After 33 he never averaged more than .66 points per game--and yet he received a big salary. Realistically, I think Fedorov is a comparable player to Kovalchuk and Ilya probably has about 6 elite years left in him and once the speed declines the fall could be steep. Fedorov was a great two way player who could still help at both ends of the ice after his decline, when Kovalchuk slips he will become a real liabilty, an average offensive player with lousy defense.
The Thrashers avoid making a big cap mistake. In any sport with a salary cap the key to winning in the regular season is getting the most bang for your buck. It is very difficult to do that when a team pays a single player 20% of their maximum possible payroll. Lidstrom in his prime was probably worth that much, but in my opinion Kovalchuk is not. Kovalchuk stats are inflated because he plays the easy minutes (regularly leads all NHL forwards in PP minutes, receives relatively favorable shift starts in the Offensive Zone). His stats would take a significant hit if he played more hard minutes like say Ryan Getzlaf is doing this season.
The trade unblocks some wasted talent. The Thrashers have four pretty good puck-moving defenseman in Enstrom, Bogosian, Kubina and Hainsey. Because Kovalchuk played nearly every minute at the left point on the PP and only Enstrom has received any substantial PP ice time. And yet the Thrashers are paying Hainsey and Kubina for their offensive skills--so that was wasted money and wasted talent. Now all four of the Thrashers top 4 D should get their crack at playing on the Power Play now. Salmela's offensive skills were also larged wasted in Atlanta and his trade really opens a roster spot for Arturs Kulda to step up to the NHL level next year. On a so-so Chicago Wolves team, a team where most players are even or slightly plus, Kulda was been leading the entire AHL with a +19 last time I checked. (He has also benefited from playing with Chelios all seasons.)
The Thrashers now have an opportunity to become a different kind of team. This has been the Ilya Kovalchuk Show since Hossa departed. This has been a wide-open high-risk team for the last 8 years. Both Don Waddell and Coach Anderson prefer the up tempo style, even though that is a very expensive route for a poor team to travel. I don't expect the Thrashers organization to embrace defense without major changes in the front office or behind the bench. In the short run though the focus will really be on the TEAM and not just relying on Kovalchuk to carry the offense. Everyone must score and everyone must play defense--now that's something I can embrace. Don Waddell intimated the same thing in his talk with Vivlamore: "This team has to take a different identity. We’ve been building around one player for a long time now. We need to build this around a team. I think this gives us an opportunity to do it." This is a big test for Coach Anderson. Can his system still produce offense without a superstar in the lineup?
Who is to blame?
I wrote on Twitter that I really dislike the blame game. Fans always want a scapegoat. But Grossman and Kovalchuk thought he deserved $11 million per season and the Thrashers thought he deserved $9-$10 million. I'm NOT going to call one party "greedy" and I'm NOT going to call the other party "cheap"--grownups sometimes disagree. NHL hockey is a business and this was a business decision by both parties.
But if you must hang it on someone I suspect that ownership has to take the brunt here. They own a multi-million dollar corporation with a valuable asset that is going to expire. They should have made him a serious offer in July and if he didn't sign bite the bullett and make a trade in September. Instead ownership appears to have been distracted by their mutual lawsuits and then by an effort to bring in a new investor. They fiddled and the Atlanta Thrashers hockey team is much poorer for it. Well run companies maximize their assets, poorly run companies miss opportunities and squander their assets.
Has Atlanta correctly valued these players?
I think that Thrashers made Kovalchuk a fair offer (perhaps even more than I would have) and they probably got the best deal available given a bad situation (which they allowed to develop). My biggest concern is whether they have evaluated these players correctly.
In many ways we might think of this as the first mid-season Rick Dudley trade. Waddell has been very busy with the Kovalchuk contract talks and Dudley has been his pro scouting eyes and ears since being hired. Dudley is apparently quite high on Cormier and I presume he likes Bergfors as well. Waddell told Vivalmore:
Bergfors is a first-year player. He has 13 goals. We think that will get even better. He’s on pace for basically a 20-goal season as a first-year player. We’ve watched Kane as a first-year player, how he’s gotten better throughout the year. We think the player is only going to get better as he gets more maturity, gets more experience in the league. Whether that’s a 20-, 25-goal scorer on a regular basis is what we hoped. Cormier is probably ideal for a second-line center because he plays both ends of the ice very well. He’s a hard-nosed player, He plays hard as we know, unfortunately suspended right now. Even his game style, he plays a very aggressive style. As Rick Dudley says he’s the kind of guy that every organization wants to have on its reserve list. It was hard for New Jersey to give up this player.
I have some big concerns about the paragraph above. It is true that Bergfors is on pace for 20 goal, 40 point rookie season. Those would be very exciting numbers for a 18 or 19 year old rookie, but Bergfors is already 22. Most NHL players show improvement in the 18-25 period and hit their peak performance level at age 25. Bergfors is much closer to 25 than he is to 18, he has a much lower ceiling than say Evander Kane.
Furthermore, Bergfors scoring numbers in the AHL are VERY underwhelming. On average an AHL player will retain roughly half of his scoring rate when he makes the jump from the AHL to the NHL. If you apply that to Bergfors, his AHL career screams "3rd line forward" to me. Of course there are error bands and some players retain more than half of their scoring rate and others less. If Bergfors turns into Erik Christensen II--well then this trade was an unmitigated disaster.
I have the exact same concerns about Patrice Cormier. He plays in the QMJHL which is the highest scoring of the three major junior leagues. A typical player who jumps from the Q to the NHL only retains about 30% of his scoring rate. If Cormier is a typical player, then that makes him a 3rd/4th line guy who will score 18-22 points in a full season. I see nothing in his statistical profile to suggest he will contribute anything to the team's offense. He would only be a 2nd line center on a very bad hockey team. My expectation is that he will be a 3rd/4th line agitator pest in the NHL, anything more would come as a surprise.
Now that I've laid my doubts out on the table, I will to point out that Waddell/Dudley deserve credit for some unexpectedly good player decisions of late. Afinogenov was better than I expected. Antropov is having a career year in Atlanta and Kubina was a great addition this summer. Peverley was phenomenal waiver pick and Schubert a very solid wavier grap as well. This team is not in the playoff mix without those all of those decisions. Credit given where credit is due. So if you're a Thrashers fan you have to hope that Cormier and Bergfors turn out more like Peverley than Christensen. Time will tell the tale.
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Comments
Typical Waddell
“If Cormier is a typical player, then that makes him a 3rd/4th line guy who will score 18-22 points in a full season. I see nothing in his statistical profile to suggest he will contribute anything to the team’s offense. He would only be a 2nd line center on a very bad hockey team.”
Typical Waddell. Take a 3rd line player and try to sell him as the next coming of… well… Kovalchuk.
by CuckooForKovalchuk on Feb 5, 2010 12:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Nobody, Don Waddell included, is trying to sell Bergfors as the next coming of Kovalchuk.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I said Bergfors, but I meant Cormier.
I get your point, but again, we improved our defense, added a strong prospect and a 1st round pick, and took a hit on offense. Only time will tell if the improved defense covers the lost offense… but we still have that prospect and pick.
Not to mention that Kovalchuk wasn’t signing here anyway.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To be clear: my point was that Waddell tries to fill top lines with lower line talent. See: Todd White, Garnet Exelby, Jim Slater, etc. Now he says Cormier can be a 2nd line center and Falconer projects him as 3rd/4th line guy. I trust Falconer a helluva lot more than I do Waddell. Don’s got to be the worst talent evaluator ever (see: Alex Bourret).
by CuckooForKovalchuk on Feb 5, 2010 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to chide Falconer, but he’s never seen Cormier play.
It’s not Waddell that evaluated Cormier, it’s Dudley. Dudley is said to be one of the best talent evaluators out there.
If you want to use Hockey’s Future as a measuring stick, they have him as a 7.5C. For reference, Evander Kane is an 8.0C.
Falconer is using a single data point to reach that conclusion – the typically fall-off for Q players who reach the NHL. It’s a good data point, but it’s only one data point. And it certainly does not replace actual scouting of a player.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually I have seen Cormier on TV during World Juniors :)
All things Thrashers + stats: www.birdwatchersanonymous.com
by The Falconer on Feb 5, 2010 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Falconer, I will elbow you in the face. ;-)
Amateur Hour.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Direction
Something I’ve been wondering since last night is whether or not the Thrashers are heading in a new direction. With the loss of Kovy, we have lost our high-powered offensive weapon. Do you see us changing our style to mimic teams like Buffalo or New Jersey that play a more defensive game? Like Buffalo we possess no superstar player and we can’t play like we still do…so how does this fit into the high-powered offensive style of Anderson? Without Kovalchuk or a comparable player does Anderson now have to change his system? Or does his system not need a superstar to put forth goals?
by Ferkahn on Feb 5, 2010 12:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
We don’t have the goalie that Buffalo has. I’m not sure it would work.
This is something we’ll have to figure out over a much longer period than we’ve had to think about it…
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What will the Thrashers look like next year?
An early guess:
Kane – Antropov – Little
BIG HOLE – Peverley – Bergfors
White – Slater – Machacek
Boulton – Reasoner – Thorburn
Enstrom – Bogosian
Hainsey – Oduya
Valabik – Kulda
Postma
Now, of course, if we can get Little to switch to LW and re-sign Armstrong, that’s probably where we’ll be. Offensively, we’ve taken a big hit. Defensively, we continue to be extremely strong. A couple years down the road when guys like Klingberg, O’Dell, and Morin are ready, we’ll get some offense back.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 12:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
“A couple years down the road”
When Year 12 of the 5-year Plan comes to fruition! Can’t wait! :)
by CuckooForKovalchuk on Feb 5, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For what it’s worth, prior to “The Incident,” the 5-year plan was working wonderfully. We took a brief dip while Heatley was out with injuries, and when he came back, things looked up again.
When Hossa came in, same story. The team was progressing a bit… until we lost Savard. From there, it headed downhill.
I did an analysis of this awhile back on my other blog, perhaps I’ll do a Version 2.0 during the Olympic Break.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Can you post the link to that? I’ve been looking for it for about 2 months. Wanted to go back and read it again.
by muttonsourdough on Feb 5, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to bag on your projections there timmy, but I’m not sure your squad earns enough to meet the cap floor. Can one of you nerd-types do the math and see?
by godsendjen on Feb 5, 2010 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
SSSSHHH!!!
This was a problem that I brought up last night and Falconer cruelly tossed asunder.
Kane – Antropov – Little (3.1+4.062+2.2 = 9.3, variable based on Little’s contract)
BIG HOLE – Peverley – Bergfors (?1.31.4 = 2.7, highly variable based on this player and Bergfors’ contract)
White – Slater – Machacek (2.375+0.8+0.858 = 4.0, variable based on Slater’s contract)
Boulton – Reasoner – Thorburn (0.5+1.15+0.6 = 2.25, variable based on Boulton’s contract)
Total for forwards: 18.25, not counting a Top-6 LW and variable based on contracts for Little, Bergfors, Slater, and Boulton
Enstrom – Bogosian (3.75+2.725 = 6.43)
Hainsey – Oduya (4.5 + 3.5 = 8)
Valabik – Kulda (0.775 + 0.8 = 1.6, not sure what Kulda’s contract actually is)
Total for defense: 16 million, variable based on whatever Kulda is signed for
That’s 34.25. My assumption is that the cap floor will be around 40 million, so a Top-6 LW plus two goalies gets us there, more or less. It’s close, but we should hit it.
Still, this is a good exercise as to why we should be Chicago’s salary dump.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Big Hole, Big Hole, Big Hole
I love that guy, works hard every shift.
I see us going after Bourque, Frolov, and Poni Boy in Tronna. And paying through the nose for Poni.
by btn on Feb 6, 2010 10:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Where's Brett Sterling???? :)
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by The Falconer on Feb 5, 2010 12:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, I’ve been wondering if he gets a true chance now that Kozzy is on the downslope and Kovy is gone, freeing up a LW spot on a scoring line and the PP (assuming Kane gets the other). Does he get a callup to end the season? As a waiver-eligible player who has yet to stick at the NHL level, I doubt he’d be claimed if it didn’t work out and he was sent back to Chicago…
by muttonsourdough on Feb 5, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If we fall out of the playoff hunt I’d like to see Sterling called up for a good stint just so Falconer can admit defeat on this and move forward ;)
by godsendjen on Feb 5, 2010 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Admit defeat? I thought Falconer has always been against Sterling…?
by muttonsourdough on Feb 5, 2010 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sterling is slow, but I think given regular ice time he could post a very cheap 45 point NHL season for close to the NHL minimum. Then we can go blow our UFA money on Poni or Frolov.
All things Thrashers + stats: www.birdwatchersanonymous.com
by The Falconer on Feb 5, 2010 5:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Line up = fail :)
All things Thrashers + stats: www.birdwatchersanonymous.com
by The Falconer on Feb 5, 2010 12:44 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Falconer, you’re really ruffling my feathers today.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and of course after having lost all of our stars and having the fan base that we do, we’ll have to overpay anyone who comes in to fill in the Big Hole or other slots this summer…
by Ferkahn on Feb 5, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Any line up with Slater and White still in it = fail.
Any where is all this love for the D coming from? We’ve slipped back to being like 25th in GA — par for the course.
Wadda-do, Everybody...
by TheBrickwall on Feb 5, 2010 12:55 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’m giving Slater a second chance. He’s been a different player since getting back into the lineup. I don’t see him as Top-6, but he can earn his spot on the 3rd line if he keeps playing like this.
Of course, without Kane and Armstrong, I doubt he’ll keep playing like this.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kovy's demands
Yes, certainly Kovy asked for an insane amount of money and length of contract. And despite me being maybe his biggest supporter here, I honestly do not blame the owners for not paying it. I still think that their offers, while fair and reasonable all things considered, were not ever going to be enough to get a deal done and they could have made them better. But they didn’t and it may not have been enough any way if they did.
Look at it this way. I live in Atlanta. I’ve live in Georgia most of my life, although I was not born here. I have acclimated pretty well to the weather. I can tolerate heat and humidity pretty well. I don’t like cold weather at all. Suppose that some recruiter called me up and offered me a job in New York. I could always tell them that I would go there – for one million dollars a year. Would I get paid that? Hell no! But I could always ask and if someone is stupid enough to pay me that kind of money, yeah, I probably would move to New York and work and live there. So if Kovy wanted the max for 12 years to stay here because it was that distasteful to him, I understand it. I don’t necessarily agree with it, but I understand it. So my question, which won’t be answered until this summer (if it ever is answered) is – does Kovy just want out of ATL or does he plan to play in the KHL? Because if it’s the latter, then he wanted to stay here only if we came as close as possible to matching his potential KHL money. If it’s the former then it’s an indictment of the Thrashers unless you believe that he and Grossman actually think he can get 12 years at the max in the NHL with another team, but I don’t think they do.
by Zontar on Feb 5, 2010 12:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
We talked about this a bit on the live show last night… It’s probably not going to happen because we have four younger Top-4 defensemen.
He’ll play out the year here and move along this summer.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just curious, who in your mind are our top 4 d-men that would warrant not signing Kubina — who some have proclaimed our MVP this season and the best NHL D-man we’ve ever suited up.
Granted, he may want to be on the first train out of town, but I’m not convinced we shouldn’t attempt to keep him.
Wadda-do, Everybody...
by TheBrickwall on Feb 5, 2010 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bogosian, Enstrom, Hainsey, Oduya. Not necessarily in that order.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And that’s not counting the guys in Chicago who are ready to move up.
by SilverRubicon on Feb 5, 2010 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ve only heard Kulda’s name bandied about in those talks. Who else are they expecting to make the jump? Postma wasn’t thought to need much time, but surely he would get another little while at least. And Lewis didn’t impress too much in his game. Lehman might could make it on the 4th line wing if he were actually good at fighting, but he’s not really, so I couldn’t really see him making the jump…
Who else?
by muttonsourdough on Feb 5, 2010 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For defense, I expect Kulda to be on the team next season. Postma could be a call-up. I do not expect Lewis or Lehman to make it through pre-season.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So if the assumptions are correct and Kubina is not a part of the future here, what happens at the deadline? If we are in a playoff spot? Clearly out of it? Does it matter?
I would think that he could get a pretty hefty return as a rental. If we could parley some more pending UFAs into guys that will help the team for years to come- I’d pull the trigger.
by Pfloyd75 on Feb 5, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kubina has a NTC. If he waives it, we’d probably move him. No telling whether he does or not.
I’m not sure how hefty it’d be, but we could get another pick out of it.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would hope that he’d waive the NTC for a shot at a cup. Chicago might be interested in him both as an upgrade for the cup run and to shed salary for next year.
by Pfloyd75 on Feb 5, 2010 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Lewis could probably fill in as our 7th man if he is healthy. Lehman is a total bust, I have no idea why they re-signed him it was a waste of money.
All things Thrashers + stats: www.birdwatchersanonymous.com
by The Falconer on Feb 5, 2010 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good analysis. Here are a couple of other points. 1. the financial hit will be immediate-the Thrashers have 12 home games in March, that’s just about 30% of their entire home schedule-30%! And this is a team that depends more than most on walkup sales. Its nice to think the team (and fans) will rally to the cause but that’s a fairy tale. More likely to be 20 cabs for 20 players for the rest of the year, given so many uncertainties about their future destinations. And a big emptiness in Phillips 2. Oduya is ok, Bergfors-the word enigma gets thrown around about him, that’s a bad sign, especially with a Euro forward. You can find Cormier types in the UFA market easily-bigger, badder, more experienced types, actually, why take on the negative aura around this kid? 3. the ancillary details-or should it be Ansi-lary- are most annoying because they look to me like concessions to Lou. The swap of 2nd rounders works out to about a 12% probability that both become NHL players and a slight increase in the probability that one will make it-giving up Salmella probably cancels all that out since he’s a more or less bonafide NHLer.
The Thrashers roster today, with its mismatched parts, soon to be UFAs, uncertain goaltending, looks like an expansion roster. Which is where Don Waddell came in and where, if there is a God and he is merciful, he will depart.
by Big Picture Guy on Feb 5, 2010 1:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
BPG: agree with most, but Bogosian, Enstrom and E. Kane you will not find on any expansion roster that I can think of.
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by The Falconer on Feb 5, 2010 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
plenty of room to take blackhawks
I know everyone is concerned about our offensive next year, but we still have plenty of trade bait in guys like lehtonen, LOTS of cap space especially if Kubina’s $5 million a year leaves, and good prospects that will either develop soon or we could use as more trade bait.
Even if we had/do mad(k)e the playoffs this year, we wouldnt have made it past the first round. In fact, we probably wouldve been killed. We just didnt have the pieces to make much of a run even with kovy. I still think in 2 or 3 years, this will be a great team. DW is finally getting the message that in a cap environment, you have to build up youth to be successful. Im optimistic of a bright future, and this isnt going to affect me being a fan at all.
by dennylambert!! on Feb 5, 2010 1:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Let me, for a moment, point out how absurd their situation is. They ALREADY have 60 million committed for next year. That’s without deals for Madden, Ladd, and Niemi. They’re going to need to move somebody.
That gives us a chance at picking up one or more of Sharp, Byfuglien, or Versteeg. If we’re smart, we’d try to do it NOW and send them back Afinogenov.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 1:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why do I get the feeling it will be the draft before we see the final return on this trade. Many teams are going to be attempting to move contracts for picks and that second first rounder may be enough to bring another top six forward from a team that must lose salary to get under the cap.
And lets be honest if this trade gets us a top four defenseman, two second line forwards and a prospect it suddenly looks much better.
by Thrashfan01 on Feb 5, 2010 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We didn’t gain a 2nd round pick. We traded our 2nd round pick for their 2nd round pick.
If New Jersey falls apart and we pick it up, it could benefit us. But probably not.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Odds of Kovy re-signing in the offseason
What do you think the chances are? If NJ wins the cup, and I highly doubt they will, do you think it will change Kovy’s perspective? You guys briefly mentioned this last night on the radio show, so just curious how realistic you think this is.
by dennylambert!! on Feb 5, 2010 1:47 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Somewhere between 10-25% he lands here.
I think LA is close to getting him.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bob McKenzie says those number are utter BS!
by SilverRubicon on Feb 5, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just trying to live up to all the expectations of amateur hour.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 2:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
McKenzie and I have kissed and made up and we’re buds now :)
All things Thrashers + stats: www.birdwatchersanonymous.com
by The Falconer on Feb 5, 2010 5:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bad visual? Nightmares? :)
All things Thrashers + stats: www.birdwatchersanonymous.com
by The Falconer on Feb 5, 2010 5:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If this happens I am going to assume it is because his wife wants it very badly. He publically said they love the city and intend for Atlanta to always be their second home. Of course I’m not sure what she wouldn’t like about LA.
by godsendjen on Feb 5, 2010 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
love watching him play, but feeling okay saying good-bye to a career -84 player.
does anybody know if there’s a current NHL’er with a lower plus-minus rating?
by ablebody on Feb 5, 2010 2:11 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well, if we say career +/- not counting current, Robert Stewart was a -260 in 575 games. Ouch.
Mike Sillinger just retired at -191.
Current players:
Rob Niedermeyer: -118 in 1,055 NHL games.
Paul Mara: -111 in 681 NHL games.
Eric Brewer: -104 in 657 NHL games.
Ray Whitney: -99 in 1,046 NHL games.
Primeau, Kubina, Brashear, Witt, Donovan, Mayers, Tucker, Lecavailer, Jokinen, finally Kovalchuk.
So he’s 14th. He’s certainly up there, though.
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for laying out the non-obvious upsides to this trade, I think lots of casual fans will not see those immediately and fans of other teams will certainly not. I think the only thing that will be advertised in the media will be the loss of scoring that Atlanta will expect to experience.
by ThrashersRecaps on Feb 5, 2010 5:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Don Waddell is 100% right about one thing: if the team wins, they’ll be supported by fans. It’s not like our attendance in the DK era was all that great anyway…
by timmyf on Feb 5, 2010 5:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’ll say this: if this roster makes it into the playoffs, I’d have a great freaking time rooting for them. Losing your star but pulling through sets up a nice feel-good story.
by Andy FF on Feb 5, 2010 5:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
The trade
Falconer, thank you for the post. It does put some things in perspective, but I think this was a bad trade fort he Thrashers. The only advantage is that Waddell limited the distraction and got rid of Kovy when he had hope the Thrashers could make it into the playoffs. That being said, I am very disappointed.
I recently relocated to Saskatoon for a job ad had the immense pleasure of watching the World Juniors. I don’t usually plug things, but if you are ever able to make it, go because that is some of the best and most passionate hockey you will ever see.
Okay, now my point. I watched team Canada and Cormier and was not impressed. He had two elbows, one of which was in the World Juniors against the Swedish team captain. He came across the ice and clearly meant to hurt someone. He should have been suspended at that time but was given a pass. He then proceeded toseriously injure someone else in his league. I find it ironic that former NHLers and analysts in Canada were stating that he should have been suspended and were aghast that Lou defended him. The media blast from here was astounding. The other astounding fact was that those same former NHLers commented that this style of play is not what they want to watch or want to have their own players, on midget leagues, playing. They are actually seeing a decline in the number of players because parents no longer approve of the “kiil’em” mentality that typifies the “gritty” players. Since he came out of this system and already has a track record for trying to harm other players, I worry that his mindset is unacceptable and he will be a major liability. I have no problem with a good, clean hit, but I am not at all impressed with his play.
I also find it very interesting that some of the reviews of Cormier from here call him a 3rd-line center. Even his prospects are not great.
Before someone wants to point out that Team Canada beat Team USA on New Year’s Eve and had the highest goal differential in the tournament, keep a couple things in mind. First, Canada had a much easier draw than Team Sweden. If they had played the tougher draw and played the way they played against Team USA, they might not have made it to the Gold Medal Game. Second, grudgingly as it may be, everyone agrees that the better team won the tournament. Canada was flat-footed and plays dump and chase. That can be very effective at the junior level, but the elite teams are much better puck-handlers and control the puck instead of playing chase. He will have to be retaught on many levels.
I am less concerned about Bergfors and Oduya. They are what they are, and we will see. My other big concern is that NJ drafted for what it wanted – Defense first. That is most definitely NOT Thrashers Hockey. if we ever do become tat team, the fan base might like winning, but many of us would rather poke our eyes out with knitting needles than watch the games.
by hopefully on Feb 5, 2010 10:28 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Dudley sees something
There’s something big Dudley sees in Cormier though. Maybe under all that dirty play, is a top 6 two-way guy. Dudley said to him, Cormier was NJ’s top prospect, AND NJ really didnt want to part with him either. There’s something I think a lot of us AMATEURS are missing. But then again, this is AMATEUR HOUR.
by dennylambert!! on Feb 6, 2010 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This has been my argument. And Lou is no slouch in the talent-evaluation department either.
I don’t often disagree with Falconer, but this is one where I see a lot more upside than he does. Not because I see it in Cormier’s play: I haven’t seen enough video… But I see it in the folks who think he’ll be a solid player.
by timmyf on Feb 6, 2010 12:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. I have not ben all that impressed with the evaluations of Cormier and figured the Devils were eager to unload the headache that he has been for the organization. However, Dudley said he was the top prospect in the Devil’s organization and Waddell said the trade with the Devils was only done when the Devils agreed to include Cormier in the trade. So regardless of what we all think, Cormier is someone the Devils really wanted to keep and someone the Thrasher really wanted.
Alot of comments on Cormier have been about his suspensions and dirty play. However, playing at the NHL may force him to tone things down as he will be held much more accountable in the big league.
by Tim C on Feb 6, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Free Agency
What do y’all think we plan to do in the offseason as far as picking up new free agents. I know there aren’t quite as many this year, but what do you think the Thrashers will do? The only notables I see are Marleau, Nabakov, Frolov, Plekanec, Jokinen, Rinne, and Kovy of course. But where do you think they will land, and what will the Thrashers do?
by Ferkahn on Feb 6, 2010 1:04 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I’d go after Marleau and Poni, who I don’t see on your list.
by timmyf on Feb 6, 2010 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ponikarovsky seems a little old to me though, so I didn’t know if we should go after him. Especially considering he’s had just one season over 60 points, and that was last year. He’s going to be 30 years old, so he should be reaching his peak or already past it….I don’t know, but what do you see in him? I figure definitely go after Marleau, and a strong maybe on Plekanec and Frolov.
by Ferkahn on Feb 6, 2010 1:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well, we need a LW, and that’s probably Poni or Frolov. I like Poni because he’s a solid 20-goal guy and a plus-player, even on a pretty pathetic Maple Leafs team. In fact, the last time he was a minus-player for a year, it was 2000-2001… and that was -1. Poni even throws a couple hits per game.
Frolov has less goals, less points, is about the same age, and a minus-player on a much better LA Kings team. He has a few 30-goal seasons, but he’s less consistent year-by-year.
by timmyf on Feb 6, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What about Plekanec over Poni? Plekanec is a few years younger and his stats have been increasing. He’s also a solid 20 goal-scorer, and he’s only had the one bad season. And he also plays LW….
by Ferkahn on Feb 6, 2010 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure. Either would be better than Sterling.
by timmyf on Feb 6, 2010 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed! I’d just like to see us make some moves without losing our future by giving up more picks and prospects or by having to highly overpay people. If we can improve the team without doing that then….of course a second round pick for a player I don’t begrudge too much…but then again, only a team highly in need of cap or wanting to trade a player that is an impending UFA would do that….and I only want to be a buyer if we have a serious shot and then only maybe…at this point I would almost rather be a seller.
by Ferkahn on Feb 6, 2010 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait and see
All we can do is wait and see. I have to believe that Rick Dudley was hired for a reason. I think that he knows what he is doing; so to all the naysayers, I think we should give it a chance and see. I think the acquisitions we made this summer were great. If Kubina and Afinogenov re-sign, great. If not, I am sure they have a plan.
by BTF on Feb 6, 2010 1:41 PM EST via mobile reply actions 0 recs

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