A New Approach to Which NHL Teams Draft Best? (1999-2005)
Many people have conducted studies of the NHL Draft (Daoust over at Pension Puppet Plans has a big one), but everyone runs up against some fundamental problems.
- If you use Games Played as your metric of draft success, that metric assumes that a game by Evgeni Malkin counts the same level as a game by Chris Thorburn--clearly one is more valuable than the other.
- Not all draft years are as strong as other years, making comparisons across multiple years more challenging.
- Every team in the draft faces a completely unique situation--their choices are altered by the teams selecting players in front of them.
- Not all teams have the same number of picks in a given draft year.
At the risk of sounding immodest, I think I've found a solution to all (or most) of these challenges. I call it the Opportunity Cost Model of drafting.
The model begins by asking this simple question, did each NHL team take the best available player when they made their pick in the draft? After all this what most NHL teams claim that they are trying to do (I take them at their word). Every pick is scored on a 0-100% scale. If a team makes the most valuable selection they receive a score of 100%, if they draft a total NHL bust the pick is scored at 0%. Draft picks that fall in between "perfect" and "bust" are scored based on who close they were in value to the "perfect" selection that was still available at that point, (this "imperfect" scores can range from 1%-99%).
The key advantage of this approach is that it adjusts for a) players with similar Game Played by different value and b) the unique set of options available at each individual pick in a draft with nearly 300 selections. Because pick scores can range from 0-100 it is also more nuanced. Most draft studies score picks on 1/0 success/failure basis which obscures some fine grained detail. I hope to capture more of that detail with this approach.
My measurement of NHL career value is Tom Awad's GVT (Goals Versus Threshold) which assigns scores to each NHL player to the degree that they are better than a replacement level player (i.e. talent readily available on waivers or in the minors). No measurement system for NHL players will be perfect, but I have used GVT for several years and I consider Awad's values the best currently available for long periods of NHL history (I also really like Alan Ryder's Player Contribution system, but it only extends back a few seasons). GVT values adjust for differences in scoring levels over time and they pass the "smell test"--star players are about where I think they should be rated. (For more details on my adjustment to GVT please see the technical note at the bottom.) Obviously my conclusions hinge on the accuracely of this valuations. To see more of Tom's work you can read him over at Puck Prospectus.
Once we have a good measure of NHL career value it becomes quite easy to do the math to see which team was most efficient in terms of sniffing out the best available player on draft day. I did this for the 7 years between 1999-2005 because those are recent draft years and this is a Thrashers blog. The 1999-2005 period covers all Thrasher drafts except for the two most recent drafts (too early to get a good read on those in my opinion). I am working on a larger project to extend this over all NHL Drafts.
To illustrate how the Opportunity Cost Model scores each team's draft pick I have created a table (below) showing the first round from the 2001 NHL Draft.
- Atlanta had the #1 pick and chose the highest rated player (according to Adjusted GVT) in Ilya Kovalchuk, Atlanta's score = 100%.
- Ottawa went 2nd and also chose the best player available at that slot, Jason Spezza, Ottawa's score =100%.
- With the 3rd pick we see our first "inefficient" or "sub-optimal" choice when Tampa takes Svitov, who has produced a paltry 13 GVT value so far. The best available player at that point in the draft was Ales Hemsky who has produced a value of 99 so far. Tampa made a big miss, but because Svitov was not a total bust their score is not 0% but 13%. (However, as time passes and Hemsky continues to pile up more GVT value over his career that Svitov pick will become less valuable in a relative sense.)
- With the 4th pick Florida also failed to make the best selection possible, but their choice of Weiss was much less costly to them as Weiss has amassed a value of 64 Adjusted GVT so far. While technically Weiss was a "miss" in that he was not the "best player available" the miss was not huge and therefore Florida receives a much better score than Tampa, because they received 64% of the value that was still available in that draft year.
- And so it goes until 13th pick where Edmonton receives a perfect 100% for taking Hemsky the "best player player available" at which point the next "best player becomes D. Roy (with a 95 GVT value) who would fall to Buffalo early in the 2nd round with 32nd overall.
So in the 1st round of the 2001 Draft only three teams get 100% credit for making the perfect choice. Nashville made the best "less-than-perfect choice" receiving 70% of the maximum value available when they picked by taking Dan Hamhuis.
| Pick | Team | Player Chosen Name | Games Played | Chosen Player Value | Best Available Player | Value of Best Available Player | Value of Chosen Player Compared to Best Available Player at Draft Slot |
| 1 | Atlanta Thrashers | I. Kovalchuk | 545 | 176 | Kovalchuk | 176 | 100% |
| 2 | Ottawa Senators | J. Spezza | 404 | 140 | Spezza | 140 | 100% |
| 3 | Tampa Bay Lightning | A. Svitov | 179 | 13 | Hemsky | 99 | 13% |
| 4 | Florida Panthers | S.Weiss | 401 | 64 | Hemsky | 99 | 65% |
| 5 | Anaheim Ducks | S. Chistov | 196 | 18 | Hemsky | 99 | 19% |
| 6 | Minnesota Wild | M. Koivu | 282 | 66 | Hemsky | 99 | 66% |
| 7 | Montreal Canadiens | M.Komisarek | 361 | 46 | Hemsky | 99 | 46% |
| 8 | Columbus Blue Jackets | P. Leclaire | 125 | 28 | Hemsky | 99 | 28% |
| 9 | Chicago Blackhawks | T. Ruutu | 324 | 53 | Hemsky | 99 | 54% |
| 10 | New York Rangers | D. Blackburn | 63 | 58 | Hemsky | 99 | 59% |
| 11 | Phoenix Coyotes | F. Sjostrom | 358 | 36 | Hemsky | 99 | 36% |
| 12 | Nashville Predators | D. Hamhuis | 405 | 69 | Hemsky | 99 | 70% |
| 13 | Edmonton Oilers | A. Hemsky | 421 | 99 | Hemsky | 99 | 100% |
| 14 | Calgary Flames | C. Kobasew | 361 | 49 | D. Roy | 95 | 52% |
| 15 | Carolina Hurricanes | I. Knyazev | 0 | 0 | D. Roy | 95 | 0% |
| 16 | Vancouver Canucks | RJ Umberger | 310 | 52 | D. Roy | 95 | 55% |
| 17 | Toronto Maple Leafs | C. Colaiacovo | 174 | 35 | D. Roy | 95 | 37% |
| 18 | Los Angeles Kings | J. Karlsson | 0 | D. Roy | 95 | 0% | |
| 19 | Boston Bruins | S. Morrisonn | 350 | 46 | D. Roy | 95 | 49% |
| 20 | San Jose Sharks | M. Goc | 265 | 20 | D. Roy | 95 | 21% |
| 21 | Pittsburgh Penguins | C. Armstrong | 281 | 54 | D. Roy | 95 | 57% |
| 22 | Buffalo Sabres | N. Novotny | 189 | 14 | D. Roy | 95 | 15% |
| 23 | Ottawa Senators | T. Gleason | 332 | 45 | D. Roy | 95 | 47% |
| 24 | Florida Panthers | L. Krajicek | 278 | 33 | D. Roy | 95 | 35% |
| 25 | Montreal Canadiens | A. Perezhogin | 128 | 17 | D. Roy | 95 | 18% |
| 26 | Dallas Stars | J. Bacashihua | 38 | 1 | D. Roy | 95 | 1% |
| 27 | Philadelphia Flyers | J. Woywitka | 152 | 27 | D. Roy | 95 | 29% |
| 28 | New Jersey Devils | A. Foster | 0 | 0 | D. Roy | 95 | 0% |
| 29 | Chicago Blackhawks | A. Munro | 17 | 0 | D. Roy | 95 | 0% |
| 30 | Los Angeles Kings | D. Steckel | 155 | 16 | D. Roy | 95 | 16% |
I repeated this process for every round of the 2001 Draft. I then averaged each team's scores across all their picks. I'll illustrate this by showing the LA Kings picks and their scores for the 2001 Draft below.
| Roun1d | Player | Adjusted GVT Value | Best Player Available | Best Player Value | % of Best Player Obtained by Actual Team Draft Pick | ||
| 1 | Karlsson | 0 | D. Roy | 95 | 0% | ||
| 1 | Steckel | 16 | D. Roy | 95 | 16% | ||
| 2 | Cammalleri | 89 | Huet | 93 | 95% | ||
| 2 | Bednar | 14 | Huet | 93 | 15% | ||
| 3 | Juntunen | 0 | Huet | 93 | 0% | ||
| 4 | Petiot | 3 | Huet | 93 | 3% | ||
| 5 | Denike | 0 | Huet | 93 | 0% | ||
| 5 | Mantyla | 0 | Huet | 93 | 0% | ||
| 7 | Huet | 94 | Huet | 93 | 100% | ||
| 8 | Gabinet | 0 | No Impact Players Left | 0% | |||
| 9 | Laplante | 0 | No Impact Players Left | 0% |
To summarize the LA Kings 2001 Draft we simply average their Value % across all their 11 picks that year = 20.9%.The Kings had two terrific selections in Cammaleri and Huet and picked up a little extra value with Bednar and Steckel (who continues to add to his GVT value).
Now you might be thinking "Getting 20.9% of the maximum possible value available is not very good performance"--and you would be correct that the Kings left a lot of value on the board in 2001. But here is the truly stunning thing, the LA Kings had one of the highest team scores in 2001. An average team only gets about 8% of the maximum possible value available when they make their pick. The efficiency rate of most NHL teams is exceedingly small. Forecasting draft picks has an amazingly high error rate. Any NHL team that could consistently decrease their error rate by just 10% would realize a major advantage on the rest of the league.
Drafting High is Harder Than It Looks
As a Thrashers blogger I hear people say "anyone could see that Kovalchuk was the number one pick" and "you don't deserve any credit for making slam dunk picks in the 1st round" and so forth. But even in the case of the 2001 Draft there were people who liked Spezza better. I know of one guy who claimed that Kovlachuk wasn't even the best Russian player in the draft--opps. In hindsight, it is VERY easy to say that a team should have taken player X, it is much harder to forecast before the draft.
To illustrate the pitfalls of drafting high let's look at the Draft Efficiency Scores for all teams picking in the #1-10 slots in recent years. Teams picking first or second overall have the highest average score, but even at that spot they typcially only get 3/4 of the maximum available value. Once you get past the top two slots, the average NHL team is only getting about half of the maximum value available to them and by the time you reach the #10 spot the number falls to about 1/4. Drafting early is "easier" than drafting later, but even in the top 10 many mistakes are made. Picking high is less of slam dunk than most fans think it is.
| Draft Pick | Average Draft Efficiency Score (1999-2005) | |||
| 1st Overall | 71% | |||
| 2nd | 75% | |||
| 3rd | 54% | |||
| 4th | 52% | |||
| 5th | 58% | |||
| 6th | 44% | |||
| 7th | 35% | |||
| 8th | 43% | |||
| 9th | 27% | |||
| 10th | 20% |
Who Has Drafted Best (1999-2005)
Now that I've explained how the scoring system works it is time to reveal the team ranking for recent years. I took the 7 drafts between 1999-2005 and scored every single player for every single team in the fashion illustrated above. I then averaged the scores for every pick taken over 7 years to arrive at a team Draft Efficiency Score. In the table below you can see these scores range from a high of 15% (Buffalo Sabres) to a low of 4% (Tampa Bay Lightning) with middle of the pack teams falling into the 8-10% efficiency area (Atlanta Thrashers). The Draft Pick Efficiency leaders are the Sabres, Canadiens, Wild and Kings. The worst clubs are Tampa, Carolina, Devils and Phoenix.
A few comments. My numbers confirm the conclusion of PPP that between 1999-2005 the Red Wings were not elite on draft day (and my approach gives them perfect scores for Zetterberg and Datsyuk). Detroit's production is just average. Here's something many people miss with respect to Detroit. When you draft Hall of Fame level talents and they play 10-15 years you don't need to have as many draft day "hits" as other teams do. Having a Nick Lidstrom on your roster for his entire career means you don't need to draft another #1 defenseman for a decade and a half. The key to Detroit's dominance position is not drafting, but player retention. Having great players who stick around makes filling out the rest of the roster MUCH easier.
Which Team Has Gotten the Most Value from the Draft (1999-2005)
The approach I have outlined above takes into account the fact that not all teams have high picks. The Opportunity Cost Model expects teams with high picks to find more value and teams with lower picks to find less value. What if we ignore draft pick position for the moment and simply ask which team has drafted the greatest absolute GVT value between 1999-2005? Given the number of very high picks it is not surprising to see Atlanta jump 6th in total value and the LA Kings finish 1st. The top teams are: Kings, Senators and Sabres and the bottom clubs are the Coyotes, Lightning, Hurricanes (some sunbelt scouts are really letting their fans down).
Conclusion
NHL teams fundamentally struggle to pick the best player available. Some teams do better than others but the error rate is very high even for the best drafting clubs. Drafting high is not a guarantee that a team will always realize the maximum value available to them.
Technical Note on Adjusted GVT Values
I have made a small adjustment to the original GVT values for this study. The Awad GVT allow for negative values for players deemed below replacement level (which makes sense). For my purposes, I consider the original "replacement level" threshold to be slightly too high. Why? Several players with long NHL careers (Ken Baumgartner 696 GP, Mark Janssens 711 GP, Jmi McKenzie 880 GP) end up with big negative numbers. I assume most NHL GMs try to assemble the best roster that they can therefore if Baumgartner and Janssens played 700 games they must have had a value greater than zero to those GMs. Therefore I adjust downward the threshold by adding a modest games played bonus (GP*.1) to every career GVT Score.
Over on the Hockey Analysis Group (HAG) Tom Awad did persuade me that there are circumstances where a below replacement level goalie might continue to start. Therefore I did not adjust the scores sufficiently to eliminate all goalies with negative GVT scores for their career (Ron Low, Darren Eliot), however for this study all players with negative values were re-coded to zero. Why? Drafting a player who gets a cup of coffee in the NHL but isn't quite good enough is a missed opportunity, but it shouldn't be a negative value (i.e. worse than a guy who never suits up for a single NHL game).
There is a problem with scoring picks at the very end when there are no impact players left to be taken, but several NHL teams find guys who get cups of coffee and therefore deserve a bit of credit for those minor successes. My crude solution is to simply divide by last impact players that was taken even though he is not longer actually available so that I have a baseline for assigning this tiny slices of positive credit for the cups-of-coffee guys. This is not an imperfect solution but one that avoids smooths out the end of the draft scoring.
While I believe this approach is superior to draft analysis that relies on Game Played or Points there are some flaws to my method. Right after a draft is completed my method will give too much credit to teams that draft over-age Europeans who can stip in and play in the NHL immediately (but this bias fades with the passage of time). My method also pnalizes teams for career ending injuries that are impossible to forecast (example Dan Blackburn) or players who die prematurely (Alexei Chereponov, Luc Bourdon, Dan Snyder). Another flaw is that my model does not adjust for talented hockey players who choose not to play in the NHL (Alexander Radulov, Bykov) or who miss NHL time due to contract disputes. To be perfectly honest, I don't see any obvious solution to those situations.
UPDATE: Tom Awad has put up a Draft Analysis looking at 15 year period using an expected value frame work along the lines of some old posts from two years ago--only his approach is much more elegant with his fitted values. We both use GVT, but each of us make different tweaks to the values and our conclusions are very similar--the Thrashers are very average (getting almost exactly the value you would expect given their draft position) and the Wings are a bit over-rated by people because they fail to perceive Detroit's strength is in player retention.
For a team that gets such a bad rap, the Thrashers have actually done pretty well in the draft. While Ilya Kovalchuk and Dany Heatley may seem like no-brainers in retrospect, maybe Patrik Stefan did as well. Sadly, only one of their picks of the last 5 years, Bryan Little, is now an NHL regular.
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Comments
Wow. Stunning post.
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by PPP on Jun 24, 2009 2:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the great article Falconer. I think that this system is quite good for evaluating the various teams ability to draft well and I really do appreciate all of the work that you put into developing this. With that opening done you know that I will of course have a couple of concerns that I thought would be worth bringing forward.
In the 2001 example that you used, Cristobal Huet is considered the best player available from somewhere in the second round onward. However, at the time of the draft Cristobal Huet’s age was 25 years and 9 months which means he had already been passed over in seven consecutive drafts prior to 2001. How fair is it to expect teams to draft him in 2001 but not in 2000, 1999 and so forth, especially given the fact that he was taken in the seventh round? How fair is it to give the Los Angeles Kings a 100% score for a player they passed on over twenty times?
Second, I think this system gives too much credit to teams that draft busts early in the draft. Giving the Lightning a score of 13 for Svitov when there were many quality players left is a bit silly. The Lightning didn’t just miss on Hemsky. They also missed on Koivu, Komisarek, Weiss and Hamhuis. I think that needs to be qualified.
Finally, I think teams are punished too severely for late round misses. By the start of the fourth round there are often less than 10 quality players available and over 100 picks left to go. Treating a complete miss here the same as a complete miss in the first round seems silly. I think it’s likely that by this point in the draft there is a lot more luck and a lot less skill in terms of correctly evaluating talent.
Anyway, I’m definitely not trying to diminish anything you’ve done here as I think you really have done a lot of great work. Thanks.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 24, 2009 2:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I appreciate the critiques. Many of the points you raiser are things I’ve mulled over myself. I don’t think my OCM is perfect, just an improvement on what has been done before—there is still room for more analysis. On to your specific questions.
1) Over-agers like Huet are a particular problem—especially right in the first few years after a draft is completed. This scoring system works best when all the players careers are finished and we can know exactly what they were worth. With more time the bias in favor of over-agers fades as the young guys earn more GVT value. Your point about all NHL teams passing over Huet repeatedly is a good one. My best defense is probably to argue that every draft year is unique to some degree. There are late bloomers who are totally off the radar in their age 17 or age 18 season, and then later that player improves and he is on the scouting radar. If Huet was on the radar in 2001 and your franchise passed on him they made an error. I’m cheating a little bit and saying “if you were undrafted you were off the radar” which is not always true—especially now with the draft only 7 rounds long.
2) As for Svitov, I’ll stick to my guns here. Svitov was not a total bust in the sense that Tampa got a little value out of him. However, they got very, very little as more time passes that GVT or 13 will approach zero as Hemsky’s career GVT gets closer to say 800.
3) Your point about Tampa making a more grievous error early on + teams being punished for failing to locate the rare impact guys late is very well taken. In fact, I have played around with a different model of this using an “expected value framework” about two years ago. (If you search on 2000 Draft and Falconer you can find it easily.) Perhaps the more appropriate benchmark should be lower than “best player available” to some thing like “typical player available at that pick slot”. I’ll think about how I might merge the Opportunity Cost and Expected Value into one model. The late rounds pick are typically almost worthless and so success there “seems” more valuable, but if we consider the Red Wings for example—how should we score a team with a mega hit late but very poor return on 2nd and 4rd rounders?
by The Falconer on Jun 24, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for responding Falconer. I think your point about Svitov is a good one. I suppose they deserve some credit for taking a player that produced something at the NHL level. And, as you pointed out, the amount of credit will diminish over time (barring a Svitov comeback).
With regard to Huet, I don’t really buy the “on the radar” thing. In the old CBA these guys weren’t UFAs. In order to sign a European you first needed to draft him. Huet’s numbers were very good in Switzerland for three years running before he was drafted. His worst year of the three, at least by GAA, was the year he was actually drafted. I can’t imagine that a guy like Huet was “on the radar” in 2001 but not 2000. Then there are guys like Brian Rafalski who put up 45 points in 43 games (in 1994-95) as a senior with Wisconsin. But scouts didn’t see him? That seems far-fetched.
Your proposed solution of mixing the Opportunity Cost and Expected Value models is a good one. Perhaps you could use the Opportunity Cost model for the first two rounds (using only players that were actually taken in the first three rounds as benchmarks) and then the Expected Value model for the later rounds. That way teams aren’t penalized for not taking a flyer on the 136th ranked European skater in the second round. Thanks again for your work and for the discussion.
by Scott Reynolds on Jun 24, 2009 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good idea GOS in how to merge the two.
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by WpgMikos on Jun 25, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great stuff
I’m continually amazed at the number of really fine draft-oriented articles coming out of the hockey blogs over the last two weeks, but this jumps right to the top. Well done!
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by Dirk Hoag on Jun 24, 2009 2:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fantastic post and analysis, man. Attaching a ‘value’ to a player certainly allows for a more thorough draft analysis. The one drawback (which you pointed out) is that team’s are penalized when promising players get injured early or play elsewhere. In a simple GP evaluation, Jiri Fischer, for example, is still considered a draft success. Out of curiosity, what was the score assigned to Karel Pilar? He was a solid pick for the Leafs that year (even though Cammaleri went 10 or 12 picks later), contributing to the team in the season immediately following the draft. It was tough to see his career end because of a heart condition.
Do you think it would be beneficial to make some sort of an adjustment to the % you assigned based on the position of the pick (ie picking the best player available at #20 given less credit than picking the best player available at #120?)
by daoust on Jun 24, 2009 2:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
re: Pilar received an adjust GVT of 13 and so the Leafs received a score of 14% of maximum value.
by The Falconer on Jun 24, 2009 3:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome post
So I guess this is some evidence to show the people calling for a team to tank at the end of the season that you get only minimal returns from tanking (maybe 20% more draft efficiency for one year.)
I would like to know if these highly efficient drafting teams (LA, OTT, BUF) spend more on scouts? If you could do a scouting spending vs. drafting efficiency and show that it pay off then you may be able to get Thrashers management to invest more in drafting.
by ThrashersRecaps on Jun 24, 2009 3:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The flip side though is that if you draft a Nick Lidstrom or a Kovalchuk and you get the first opportunity to re-sign them before any other team does—and that can be quite valuable to an organization.
NHL teams are highly secretive on their budgets. The Phoenix bankruptcy case revealed that PHX spent $2.3 million on scouting. I have no idea what other teams spend, but I hear that Detroit has a scout in each major European hockey country which is quite exceptional.
by The Falconer on Jun 24, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would imagine that all scouts get paid roughly the same amount, so couldn’t you actually figure out a scouting budget based on the number of scouts that a team has couldn’t you?
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by Zachary Zielonka on Jun 25, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually I think some scouts are paid different amounts due to current variation. Also I suspect Detroit probably pays higher than Buffalo but how knows, maybe I’m wrong about that.
by The Falconer on Jun 25, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is just an epic, fantastic post. Thank you.
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by Down Goes Brown on Jun 24, 2009 10:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Great, great post.
Interesting that your system ranks Huet higher than Cammalleri, though.
by DarrenM on Jun 25, 2009 12:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That is NHL value up to the moment. Considering their ages it is extremely likely that over time Cammalleri will catch and pass Huet. However, the gap between them will probably remain small as long as Huet remains a starting goalie in the NHL.
by The Falconer on Jun 25, 2009 1:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bravo! Thank you for this, this is a great post.
Of course it’s not a perfect system, but I don’t think it’s possible to find such a thing. If used with the other draft analysis tools (like Daoust’s one), it’s a really really useful thing to compare the draft results of the different teams. Wonderful.
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by Grrrreg on Jun 25, 2009 5:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree wholeheartedly
My one observation is that maybe it doesn’t need to be so complex.
I came to very similar conclusions about which teams drafted well and which didn’t just by looking at where each player who played this year came from. Buffalo and Montreal stood out.
It’s also harsh on teams who have to be compared to Zetterberg’s rating for 200 picks when even Detroit missed him 6 times. Yes they eventually took a shot on him, but what does it say that they left him to the seventh round.
I think what I’ve concluded is that there is no way to know who absolutely drafts best and who doesn’t. Certainly not without some degree of subjective conjecture. I’ve also concluded that it doesn’t really matter. Even you showed the highest rated team creeps in at 15% – not exactly stunning. All teams are getting into a guessing game on draft day and there’s a lot of luck involved. Teams probably need some combination of good scuting and luck. But the Sabres have no Cups, nor look to get one, despite their drafting. Yet the Red Wings are a dynasty – mainly thanks to some late rounders panning out for them. Tells me my Habs should trade all their scouts for an ounce of Detroit’s luck.
by Topham on Jun 25, 2009 6:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would point out that Detroit too is penalized for passing on Zetterberg six times. The system is very even handed in this respect. The “perfect” choice was for Detroit to take him with their highest pick.
re: Buffalo versus Detroit. I encourage you to read my post “How to Build a Cup Contender in Atlanta, Part 2.” Judging draft performance by Stanley Cups won is a bad approach. The Islanders scouts shouldn’t be credited for their work—it is not their fault Milbury traded away all the talent.
by The Falconer on Jun 25, 2009 3:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I also agree that this is a very interesting approach, and a much-needed point of departure for overhauling the way we evaluate draft performance.
One initial thought is that one could quibble about the value of a Hemsky vs. Mikko Koivu. Koivu is a far superior defending forward, wins his faceoffs, and scored at about the same rate as Hemsky did. So while the GVT is useful, it doesn’t give a full hockey picture. It would tend to undervalue a player like Zetterberg in my opinion, so how about a system that assigns extra value to things like winning trophies? Drafting a Conn Smythe winner is ideally what teams are aiming for, and there are certainly instances when the Selke winner might be a greater draft coup than even the Art Ross winner.
by K Marshall on Jun 25, 2009 7:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Really your question is for Tom Awad more than for me. I’m fairly satisfied with his GVT values after trying to build my own scores. Once you start dividing up Team Wins to individual team members you end up with results similar to GVT.
by The Falconer on Jun 25, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I take them at their word
I don’t. And that’s my one problem with what is an otherwise very impressive analysis. In 2007, Dallas used all of its 8 picks on forwards while Montreal used 6 of its 9 for defensemen. In 2004, Glen Sather drafted 11 forwards out of 13 picks. Teams draft to fill perceived needs. And to piggyback on the previous poster, I doubt that a GM picking for a Jacques Lemaire coached team would ever pick Hemsky over Koivu, he’s not the type of player who would fit in that system. And there is definately a Darryl Sutter-type player-he thinks he can only find them in the WHL. I can’t remember who said it but one GM was quoted after a recent draft as saying “he couldn’t afford to get scoring through free agency” so there was an economic reason for drafting so many potential scoring forwards.
In 01 when Rick Dudley drafted Svitov, he said he was the " best all around forward" (welcome to Atlanta, Rick). Svitov’s development was botched, not the least because the Russians wouldn’t let go of him but here’s my theory (with benefit of hindsight) on that pick: Dudley wanted to trade LeCavalier-it’s why he quit, so the current Lightning brouhaha is deja vu all over again, and probably saw Svitov as a potential replacement: he also had a third line center (Cibak) who was judged to be weak physically so that was probably another reason for Svitov’s appeal. Neither reason has much to do with Dudley’s public rationale.
by Big Picture Guy on Jun 25, 2009 8:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Damn
That’s all I can really say because this is incredible. Great work.
by HockeyJoe on Jun 25, 2009 2:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely incredible work
I’m going to have to re-read it over again to ensure I picked up all your points but a really good read.
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by WpgMikos on Jun 25, 2009 11:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This is excellent, truly great stuff. Thanks for doing all this work.
The only comment I have concerns a potential weighting for the rounds/picks. If you miss on a first rounder (and score a 64 out of 99 as you did on Hamhuis), the gap is 35 points but you still get around a 66% rating. However, if you score 6 out of 9 points in the 9th round, you get the same score. These two performances are very, very different obviously. The miss in the first round is much more important than the miss in the 3rd round despite being accounted for in the same way.
I think if you can somehow weight the pick by the Expected GVT per position, it might be a more revealing analysis. This can’t be done quite so simply due to the issues you highlight above: you don’t want to penalize teams for not having picks, you can’t be penalized for picking lower in the draft order, etc. But I think this is where the analysis should go in the next iteration.
This is truly great stuff though. Kudos!
by RickyRage on Jun 26, 2009 3:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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